This week in Reading the Wheel of Time, we are going to cover Chapters 27 and 28. I really enjoyed Chapter 28 especially. I always enjoy Perrin’s forays into Tel’aran’rhiod and how it compares to the more traditional ideas of Dreaming, and of course I adore Hopper. We also have a really fun cameo from Birgitte Silverbow, and a brand new enemy in Slayer.
I’m less enthused about Chapter 27, as Jordan is really straining my desire to like Faile. Like, really really straining it.
Chapter 27 opens with Perrin and company in the Ways, he and Gaul following a little ways behind Loial and the women. Despite the crowding of the darkness around them, Perrin is careful to keep the prescribed distance, not wanting a repeat after what happened when he went through the gate and to the first Guiding before Loial and Faile.
When she caught up to them, he almost felt guilty for making her worry, but instead of seeming worried she slapped him, twice, and then punched him in the ribs. Perrin asked her not to, in his quiet, somber way, but when she didn’t stop he retaliated.
She had been furious, of course. Furious with Loial for trying to intervene; she could take care of herself, thank you very much. Furious with Bain and Chiad for not intervening; she had been taken aback when they said they did not think she would want them to interfere in a fight she had picked. When you choose the fight, Bain had said, you must take the consequences, win or lose. But she did not seem even the tiniest bit angry with him any longer. That made him nervous. She had only stared at him, her dark eyes glistening with unshed tears, which made him feel guilty, which in turn made him angry. Why should he be guilty? Was he supposed to stand there and let her hit him to her heart’s content? She had mounted Swallow and sat there, very stiff-backed, refusing to sit gingerly, staring at him with an unreadable expression. It made him very nervous. He almost wished she had pulled a knife. Almost.
They continue on in the darkness, and Perrin is a little comforted to see Gaul be as perplexed by the layout of the Ways as he is, even if the Aielman doesn’t seem afraid at all of the darkness.
Eventually, Loial and Faile’s lanterns stop at the Guiding, and Faile’s voice calls out to him. The two men approach, finding Loial with his ears drooping and Faile pretending not to notice him. When he asks what she wants, she blinks as though remembering and claims that she wanted to see if he “could be taught to come” when she called him. Gaul seems to think this is funny, and tells Perrin that he might as well try to understand the sun, which simply is, and cannot be lived without, but also cannot be understood.
Loial interjects to tell Perrin that it wasn’t Faile who needed him at all, that Loial wanted him to catch up because they have reached the Waygate at Manetheren. Perrin waits for Faile to say something, not wanting to start a fight, and scrubs absently at his nose and the lingering, rank smell there. He’s about to give up and start following the line to the Waygate without Faile’s permission, when suddenly he realizes what the smell is, and shouts to warn the others.
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The Trollocs attack in the next moment, and Perrin finds the hammer in his hands, rather than his axe. Despite being nearly taken by surprise, they manage to take out the Trollocs in a few minutes. When it’s over, Perrin is aware of blood on his face and another injury to his leg, and he can see that Loial and the Aiel also have wounds. But he only has eyes for Faile, who appears unhurt and who doesn’t smell injured, as far as Perrin can tell. He knows that the only reason they survived was because the Trollocs’ eyes had trouble adjusting to the light of their lanterns.
A second attack comes, this time a Myrddraal, and Perrin finds himself thinking like a wolf, willing to die to take down a Neverborn, wanting to sink his teeth in its throat. Pushing past the Maidens he attacks with his hammer, shattering the head of the Myrddraal just as it turns to face him. He doesn’t have much time to grapple with how much he lost himself to the wolf, however, because other sounds in the darkness let them know that there are more Trollocs coming. He urges everyone to get to the Waygate before the Trollocs decide what to do without the Myrddraal leading them. He’s surprised at how easily Faile obeys.
They all hurry after Loial, but Perrin catches a worse sound than Trolloc feet and hooves—the soft sighing of the Machin Shin. He shouts for them to hurry, and Loial, realizing what is coming, prays to the Light as the doors swing open. Faile races through, despite the Ogier’s warning shout, and Perrin urges the Aiel to follow. Perrin asks if Loial can lock or block the Waygate shut.
Perrin gives a wolf’s howl of challenge before setting his horse to go through the Waygate. On the other side he finds the Aiel already turning to face the coming threat, while Faile is climbing to her feet, having taken a tumble from going too fast through the Waygate. Loial exits last, followed by two Trollocs, but when they are only halfway through the surface of the Waygate turns black and bubbling, and clings to them. Perrin hears the whispering of the Machin Shin as it drags the Trollocs back into the Waygate. The doors slowly close, and Loial quickly puts not one but two Avendesora leaves into the door, sealing it but also leaving the inside leaf on the outside, so that the door cannot be opened on that side. He tells Perrin that he could lock it forever by not replacing the leaves at all, but that he cannot destroy the Ways, which the Ogier grew and tended. Perrin tells him that it will do. Even the Aiel seem shaken by the experience with the Black Wind.
Perrin turns to get his bearings where they have emerged in the Mountains of Mist, remembering Manetheren, remembering the Trolloc raid on Winternight that had precipitated his departure from his home. But now he has Whitecloaks to worry about, not Trollocs.
At the far end of the valley, Perrin sees two wheeling hawks. He’s startled when one of them is shot down, as he can’t think of a reason anyone would shoot down hawks unless they were over a farm. The second hawk dives down after the first, only to reverse and begin to climb again, desperately, as it is chased by a cloud of ravens. They surround it, and when the group disappears, the hawk is gone.
Faile asks what he is looking at, and Perrin tells her that it’s just birds. He doesn’t want to worry anyone unless he’s sure, but he knows what ravens might mean, and they had come from exactly the same place as the arrow had.
They turn to more practical matters, cleaning the blood from Perrin’s hammer and tending everyone’s wounds. Perrin is confused, and then touched, by Faile’s attentions, even though her words to him are still harsh. He notes her wincing as she gives him stitches, and her hands are gentle despite her grumblings, confusing him. After taking care of him she yells at him again, and Perrin tiredly decides that Gaul is right about women and the sun.
Perrin sends out his mind, looking for the wolves, and is startled, and worried, when he can’t find any.
Faile insists on continuing to keep the groups separate for their camps, despite Loial’s protests that they are out of the Ways and his oath has been kept. Perrin tells him to leave it alone and to stay with the women’s group. Still, he doesn’t move very far away.
He and Gaul make camp and eat in silence, while around the other fire there is laughter and conversation. Loial is visibly uncomfortable trying to sit aside with a book, and Perrin asks Gaul if he knows any funny stories. Gaul can’t think of any, but Perrin tries to make a joke it anyway, so that the girls will hear him laughing.
Their talk turns to Manetheren, and although Perrin insists that his people are farmers and shepherds, not a great nation warriors like their ancestors, Gaul remarks that he has seen Perrin, Rand, and Mat dance the spears. It makes Perrin wonder how much they have changed since they left home, not just his eyes or Rand’s channeling, but more than that. He thinks that Mat is the only one who still seems himself, just more so.
Perrin tells Gaul that he may be able to “find something out” during the night, and that Gaul may have to kick him to wake him up. When Gaul seems unfazed by this strange request, he remarks that none of the Aiel have ever asked about his eyes, or even given them a second glance.
“The world is changing,” Gaul said quietly. “Rhuarc, and Jheran, my own clan chief—the Wise Ones, too—they tried to hide it, but they were uneasy when they sent us across the Dragonwall searching for He Who Comes With the Dawn. I think perhaps the change will not be what we have always believed. I do not know how it will be different, but it will be. The Creator put us in the Three-fold Land to shape us as well as to punish our sin, but for what have we been shaped?” He shook his head suddenly, ruefully. “Colinda, the Wise One of Hot Springs Hold, tells me I think too much for a Stone Dog, and Bair, the eldest Wise One of the Shaarad, threatens to send me to Rhuidean when Jheran dies whether I want to go or not. Beside all of that, Perrin, what does the color of a man’s eyes matter?”
Perrin observes that he wishes everyone thought that way, and reminds Gaul to kick him if need be, before settling down to sleep, and the dream.
He finds himself in daylight, standing by the Waygate, in a verdant setting without any sign of humans, just the scent of birds and deer and rabbits. For a moment he feels he is a wolf, but he pulls away from that feeling, and is then fully in his own body, with the hammer hanging from the loop meant to hold his axe. He’s surprised, and for a moment the axe is there, although strangely indistinct, and then it is the hammer again. Perrin prefers the hammer, even if the axe is technically a better weapon.
Thinking of the odd things that happen in the wolf dream seems to trigger a new oddity, and a patch of sky seems to open like a window to somewhere else. Perrin sees Rand, surrounded by storm winds and small flying animals like the one depicted on the dragon banner, then Nynaeve and Elayne hunting something through a dark and twisted landscape of buildings, then Mat, flipping a coin to decide which way to walk down a fork in the road. As he starts down one, he is suddenly wearing a wide-brimmed hat and carrying a walking staff bearing a short blade. Finally he sees Egwene and a woman with long white hair, staring at him in surprise as the White Tower crumbles behind them.
Perrin drew a deep breath. He had seen the like before, here in the wolf dream, and he thought the sightings were real in some way, or meant something. Whatever they were, the wolves never saw them. Moiraine had suggested that the wolf dream was the same as something called Tel’aran’rhiod, and then would say no more. He had overheard Egwene and Elayne speaking of dreams, once, but Egwene already knew too much about him and wolves, perhaps as much as Moiraine. It was not something he could talk about, not even with her.
Perrin does wish he could talk to Elyas, and for a moment after the thought he thinks he hears his voice whispered on the wind. Then that, too, is gone.
He calls for Hopper, but the wolf doesn’t appear, and Perrin decides to get on with it. His first step takes him right to where he was aiming for, the spot where the ravens appeared, and Perrin wonders if he’s learning more about how the dream works. He finds no sign of archer, birds, or wolves, and decides to try to call again, this time from a peak higher up. He leaps from peak to peak, calling for Hopper, seeking other wolves, but finding only a few ancient signs of men, of figures and writing carved into the mountain side, long worn away over time.
And then, suddenly, he finds another man, wearing a blue coat and carrying a bow, stooping over something in the brush. Perrin finds his scent cold and not quite human, and the man takes off upon seeing Perrin. Perrin steps to where the man had been and finds a dead wolf, half skinned.
Knowing only something evil could kill a wolf in the wolf dream, Perrin takes off after the man, crossing farmland and villages empty of people, north and east until they are running over grasslands and Perrin sees a metal tower in the distance. The man disappears inside, leaving Perrin unable to find a door or a way to follow.
Just then Hopper appears, ordering Perrin to stop. He tells Perrin that the man he is hunting is called Slayer, and that he is in the dream in the flesh, and able to kill. Perrin asks how this is possible.
Perrin is determined to get in, despite Hopper’s warning that everyone knows this place is evil. Then a human voice arrests him. The woman wears her golden hair in a thick, intricate braid, and her clothes are strange, though Perrin catches something silver glinting at her side. She remarks upon his sharp eyes, and Hopper appears to take no notice of her at all.
She tells Perrin that she has come to warn him “despite the prescripts” and that the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the other world, and almost impossible to leave here. She is surprised when Perrin admits that Hopper also warned him. She tells Perrin that the tower is a doorway to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, the memory of whom lies still in an old game children play called Snakes and Foxes.
“‘Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.’… “Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. It does not matter so long as you stay away from the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They “are not to be trusted, archer. Stay clear of the Tower of Ghenjei. Avoid the World of Dreams, if you can. Dark things walk.”
Perrin asks if she means Slayer, and she answers that it is a good name for the man who is not old himself, though his evil is ancient. She admits that she should not be talking to Perrin, and then realizes that he must be ta’veren. But she refuses to tell him his name, and Perrin is startled when another person appears, just for a moment, the shadow of a man with two hilts of swords rising above his shoulders. It almost reminds Perrin of something.
“He is right,” the woman said behind him. “I should not be talking to you.”
When he turned back, she was gone. As far as he could see were only grassland and scattered thickets. And the gleaming, silvery tower.
Perrin observes that Hopper isn’t exactly on his best guard, and finds out that the wolf didn’t see or hear anyone. Still, Perrin is forced to acquiesce to both the woman and the wolf’s advice and returns to his original intent, filling Hopper in on his search for the wolves, the ravens he saw, and the Trollocs in the Ways.
When he was done, Hopper remained silent for a long time, his bushy tail held low and stiff. Finally… Avoid your old home, Young Bull. The image Perrin’s mind called “home” was of the land marked by a wolf pack. There are no wolves there now. Those who were and did not flee are dead. Slayer walks the dream there.
But Perrin has to go home, though Hopper warns him that the day of the Last Hunt is coming. They part ways, and Perrin wakes to find Gaul standing guard, and Faile keeping watch over the other camp. Perrin tells Gaul he’ll take over for a while, and warns the Aielman that things in the Two Rivers might be even worse than he thought. “Things often are” is Gaul’s stoic reply.
Perrin is left to his thoughts, puzzling over the identity over the man called Slayer, the Trollocs at the Waygate and the ravens, and whether or not they are all connected.
I am fascinated by the addition of the tower of Ghenjei to the mythos (if that’s the right word) of The Wheel of Time, and it raises a lot of questions for me about the origins of the redstone doorways and how the dimensions of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are connected to Rand’s reality. I had originally supposed that the ancient Aes Sedai had been exploring into other realities via their powers, building doorways and finding out where they led all in one go. Now, however, I wonder if the Tower of Ghenjei didn’t exist first, perhaps having nothing to do with the Aes Sedai or channeling at all. Perhaps the Aes Sedai explored these worlds through the Tower first, and, after discovering how dangerous the snake and fox people could be, struck the bargains and built the archways in an effort to make the interactions safer—and perhaps more profitable too.
Either way, now we know a little bit more about the fairy-like beings that Mat and the others met. I’m not positive which is which, but I’ll assume right now that they are always listed in the same order, and thus Aelfinn = snakes and Eelfinn = Foxes. (I apologize in advance for how irritating it will be for my readers if this is backwards.) Given Mat’s experiences with the Eelfinn, I can well imagine how dangerous entering the Tower of Ghenjei must be. Mat had no knowledge of the “ancient agreements” that the Aes Sedai made to ensure safety while interacting with the Eelfinn, so I kind of imagine that what happened to him probably happened to everybody, or at least everybody who didn’t have fire, music, or iron at hand. It might have been worse, even, than Mat’s experience, as it seems that the only reason the foxy people hanged him in his own world instead of in theirs is because one of his “wishes” was to go home. Otherwise the Eelfinn would have just tortured and killed him in their own realm.
I am quite curious who Slayer is. It’s possible he’s one of the Forsaken, or maybe he’s an Eelfinn who got loose when Mat was over there meddling. I’ve gotten to know Jordan’s writing well enough, however, to hold space for the likelihood that he is a brand new villain of a different kind, perhaps the other side of the coin to Perrin, an old thing come again but this time it’s evil.
It’s delightfully frustrating to have Perrin learn about the Tower of Ghenjei, rather than Mat or someone else who has had dealing with the redstone doorways. This isn’t the first time we’ve had main characters come into possession of information that pertained to someone else’s quest, and I always enjoy a good bit of dramatic irony. The way Jordan employs this tight third-person pov but jumps around to many different characters, including the occasional baddie, really gives one the best of both worlds, narratively speaking. We get those deep looks into people’s heads but still get to see lots of what is going on, all around the world.
As far as dramatic irony goes, this also isn’t the first time Perrin has stumbled across Egwene (or she across him) while they were both in Tel’aran’rhiod, and it always makes me chuckle. Last week I was questioning why we hadn’t seen any male Dreamers, despite the fact that Dreaming isn’t connected to the ability to channel, and even the Aiel don’t seem to have any. I do find it amusing to think of Amys being confused by Perrin’s ability. She may be a Wise One and an expert on Dreaming, someone who can look down her nose at the Aes Sedai understanding of Tel’aran’rhiod, or even of channeling, but there are things in the world that she, too, doesn’t know. The world is changing, as everyone keeps saying.
I really like Gaul, who together with Rhuarc is probably my favorite among the Aiel thus far. I like the quiet, unpretentious confidence, and the fact that it brings with it a certain amount of open-minded flexibility. It makes sense to me that Colinda told him he should go to Rhuidean after his clan-chief dies. I think he would be able to absorb and accept the revelation about the truth of the Aiel, and to make it a part of himself and his decisions going forward. He also makes a great companion for Perrin, as the two are very similar in a lot of ways. It’s also interesting to be reminded of the stoicism of the modern, fighting Aiel, after everything we went through in the last few chapters—the way they handle the Ways, and the way Gaul observes that things being worse than you first thought is often the way of life.
I am not, however, here for this “The Quiet Man” nonsense with Perrin and Faile. I try to remain spoiler free, but I have heard that a lot of people dislike their relationship, and I’m beginning to see why. I love a good Benedick and Beatrice scenario, but their childish way of handling their feud is now descending into outright physical abuse. Even recognizing that violence is an integral part of these characters’ lives now, and as such this particular scuffle probably doesn’t last in the mind as long as it otherwise would, if I were Perrin, Faile’s behavior would have me seriously questioning my desire to be in a relationship with her. And then he spanks her? And it… helps? That’s not women being the sun, that’s just dumb.
I think I could accept it more if Perrin and Faile were alone through all this, but the presence of Bain, Chiad, and Gaul is narratively used to reinforce some of the themes and concepts. I mean, Gaul having to continually warn Perrin not to wander off with Bain and Chiad? That’s really messed up, even for Aiel.
But I don’t want to beat a dead Trolloc about it, and there’s still a lot of good stuff to touch on. Like Birgitte showing up! I have been endlessly curious about how the Heroes of the Horn work, like where they were before the Horn summoned them, and where they wait now that they have been summoned but aren’t currently in use. Did the Aes Sedai somehow bind the heroes to the Horn and thus separate them out from the general weaving, or does the Horn just reach into whatever afterlife or mid-place exists for those who have died and have not yet been reborn, plucking them out at need? Can the Heroes no longer be reincarnated, now that their spirits are bound to the Horn of Valere? There are so many existential questions!
But now one of those questions has been answered, since apparently the Heroes are hanging out in the World of Dreams. It makes a fair amount of sense—after all, Tel’aran’rhiod is an afterlife for wolves, who are apparently supposed to be reborn for the Last Battle, or Last Hunt, as they call it. Why should it not also serve for the dead humans who are waiting for the Last Battle to come. But Hopper couldn’t see Birgitte, which I find very curious. Do they not actually share the same metaphysical space? Perhaps there is overlap, but the wolves’ afterlife is slightly separated from the Tel’aran’rhiod that humans can enter. Or maybe only Perrin could see Birgitte because she did not intend to appear to anyone, except that she was pulled to him by his ta’veren power.
In any case, I really like her. She’s got a sense of humor, and stood out as a character right away, even in that brief moment we met her back in The Great Hunt. She has that warrior attitude, a sort of playfulness in the face of destiny, like the Klingon “it’s a good day to die” attitude.
An aside: I went back and reread that bit in The Great Hunt where the boys talk to Hawkwing, Birgitte, and company, and was struck anew by Hawkwing’s statement about the number of Heroes. “Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.” At the time I took him to only be talking about being bound to the Horn, but now I think that he is actually talking about the pattern of reincarnation. I’ve asked many questions about who is reincarnated in this universe, how, and how often, and apparently that question was answered already: It’s only a few.
Obviously Rand, as the Dragon, is constantly reincarnated, and we know that Mat has had a past life, but it’s possible that none of the others have been born before, at least as far as I can tell (or remember) from the narrative. So that’s interesting. Also, the guy with two swords that Perrin glimpsed so briefly is probably Gaidal Cain.
I don’t know why Perrin doesn’t recognize Birgitte. Is it because they’re in Tel’aran’rhiod, and perception there is a little different? I know in my dreams I can sometimes recognize someone even when they don’t look how they look in the waking world, or not recognize someone I should know, so it makes sense that Tel’aran’rhiod might operate on some slightly off, dream-like rules, like the way you travel when you’re in it. Or perhaps the same disconnect that made Hopper unable to see her also affected Perrin’s perception or memory.
I’m curious about Perrin’s observations about how much he and Rand have changed, while Mat just seems himself but more so. It’s an interesting perspective to have, that Mat’s changes are just amplifying the way he already was—the gambling, the recklessness, the reliance on a combination of luck, wits, and bluffing—while Perrin and Rand feel like they’ve been changed into people who are very different than they were before. I wonder if, in time, Perrin will come to feel like the wolf side is as much of a part of him as the human side, just as Rand might one day come to feel like his power and his identity as the Dragon does belong to him. I’m thinking, too, of Rand’s new favorite saying about duty being heavier than a mountain. Perrin, also, is driven by a sense of duty: He can’t bring himself to turn away from battles or violence, even though he despises it. He feels like he must sacrifice himself for his family in the Two Rivers. Rand is driven by his fate as the Dragon and the knowledge that he must act for the world, not himself, or the world will literally be destroyed. But Mat is still clinging to this illusion that he is acting only for himself, and while I don’t think that is actually the case, it holds up well enough that both Mat himself and the people around him believe it.
I’m going to be taking next week off to deal with a few more family medical things, but we will resume on March 10th with Chapters 29 and 30, which are quite sad indeed. Until then I wish you all a very good and relaxing two weeks, and a fun discussion down in the comment section.
Sylas K Barrett is very curious about how they’re going to do Perrin’s eyes in the TV show. Contact lenses? CGI á la the Sci-Fi channel’s Dune mini series. Fun times, either way.
Hey, If there are any mods around—
‘Just then Hopper appears, ordering Perrin to stop. He tells Perrin that the man he is hunting is called Slayer, and that he is in the dream in the flesh, and able to kill. Perrin asks how this is possible.
Good luck with the medical things next week! Here’s hoping all remains well.
Yes, Hopper and Birgitte for the win, and boo to the Perrin and Faile show so far. There are some high points, and you’ll see many of them in this book, but (spoiler) Perrin-Faile drama is a problem for much of the series.
Sylas has assumed above that everything abnormal in randland is Aes Sedai wrought. A fair assumption I guess, based on the prevailing described magic system, but after various descriptions of the portal stones predating the Aes Sedai in the age of legends in The Great Hunt (from Lanfear no less) I had always assumed that a number of the more fantastical elements in randland, including the portal stones, the Tower of Ghenjei, Treaties with the Finns and the Horn of Valere pre-dated the age of legends and were not necessarily related to the one power.
Whilst the redstone doorways may be ter’angreal that mimic some aspect of the tower of Ghenjei the tower itself doesn’t make much sense from a one power point of view, anymore than the Horn of Valere does.
I know that it wont be read by Sylas but I hope that all the family medical issues that you allude to go well next week.
I’d forgotten about the Tower of Ghenjei popping up this early. Jordan had a deft hand at laying a trail of breadcrumbs, scattered across three different storylines.
I’ve said it before, but if the characters could just get together and compare notes – and not keep secrets – the whole story would be wrapped up six books sooner. But misinformation and missed information is a constant irony in the story.
Regarding Faile: It’s annoying, but it’s not a woman thing – it’s a culture thing. Much like Perrin’s self-centered insistence that she stay out of trouble. Two-Rivers and Saldaean culture are different in their relationships, unhealthy in their own ways. She’s trying to provoke a reaction, the tit-for-tat she expects in a relationship, but Perrin does not fight, it’s not his way. It escalates.
Again, poor communication and pig-headedness.
@1: Thanks–got it!
@@.-@ – remember that the Tower of Ghenjei was in EOTW as well – Rand and Mat sailed past it and got some commentary on it from the knowledgeable Bayle Domon.
I can’t remember if it’s definitively stated, but I believe every person is eventually reborn. Now, whether that means there are no new souls, I don’t know. But Hawkwing is referring to only a few who are bound to the Horn, not just general rebirth.
Sylas has Perrin and Faile misgivings, eh? So it begins. Wait until he finds out that Faile’s culture is built around women being dominated by their husbands.
I think Perrin is wrong about Mat: Book 4 Mat is very different than pre-Shadar Logoth Mat. Although Suian was able to nail his character in Book 3 and the introduction of his dad into this narrative here in a minute shows that he has really started to take after him as he has matured.
Faile is at her most unlikable in this chapter. Even she, looking back some books later can’t excuse her behavior. I forgive her though when she is pitch perfect in helping Perrin through his grief later.
@7, I don’t think it’s that simple. Saldean women seem to see relationships as a battle for dominance and want a man who can match them and occasionally master them. Remember Faile gets upset when Perrin is her doormat and likes it when he fights back. Kind of dysfunctional by our standards but it seems to work for the Saldeans.
@9 princessroxana
Saldean women- or at least Faile- also seem to have deep-seated objections to explaining how their culture works to the men they’re trying to court. She wants him to follow the rules of her culture, which is a big enough expectation on its own, but she won’t tell him what those rules are.
Even if Saldean culture was perfectly functional and wonderful, no one can play their role in a courtship when they have no idea what that role is supposed to be.
@10 – I do not disagree with a single thing you wrote. Couldn’t be more on point. BUT. And I hate to throw that word out there, we’re also dealing with a 16 year old character who I assume is in her first serious relationship. Having expectations on that character behaving in a mature, fully reasonable way all the time isn’t realistic. So as much as it’s annoying, and boy oh boy is it annoying, I can’t find fault with the narrative allowing her to behave in the way she does. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Also, I’m not sure if I am happy or disappointed that Sylas doesn’t participate in the comments. We could always have a Part 2 of the Great Spanking Debate of 2009. Can someone drag Leigh over here and ask her thoughts lol?
For those who may not be in the know, feel free to find out: https://www.tor.com/2009/04/10/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-shadow-rising-part-9/
@@.-@ & @10 Yes, yes, yes to lack of communication, secretiveness, etc. I remember one point in my long-ago first read when I almost quit, disgusted that the entire plot seemingly rested in misunderstanding and lack of openness. Reminded me of 1950s episodes of I LOVE LUCY except that we get conflict instead of comedy.
AND: Remembering Leigh Butler’s explosive response to the “spanking” scene, I was anxiously anticipating Sylas’s reaction. I was mildly let down, but actually tend to agree with him: I’m no fan of physical violence between sweethearts, but she DID hit first, and, given her cultural background, may well have deliberately provoked and expected what followed.
I believe that Jordan took great pride in depicting very different yet believable cultures. But when two or more of these come into contact with each one “expecting” to be understood and expecting the others to bend to its customs, it’s hard for me to have patience for the resulting conflicts. It is just an “easy way out” to generate tension, IMO.
Saldea is in the borderlands, and as such, is almost constantly at war with shadowspawn. It shouldn’t be a surprise that they would view relationships as a battle in some way, I imagine they view most things as battles. Of course a Saldean woman would avoid a man that won’t stand up for himself, he’s very likely to end up dead.
@3:
Until Sylas reads the The Big White Book of Bad Art, there isn’t any way to know that the One Power wasn’t used by humans until the Age of Legends started, and that Myrlin was the first Aes Sedai.
@@.-@:
Exactly. It’s messed up, but Saldaean culture taught Faile that a man who didn’t yell at you wasn’t passionate enough about you to care. It makes her feel insecure — she doesn’t understand his lack of reaction, and her instincts tell her it means he is losing interest in her, because that’s what it would mean for the men she grew up around.
@7:
Assuming their catechism is correct (not a safe assumption, of course), then apparently not everyone is reborn, because they swear oaths around their “hope of salvation and rebirth” — rebirth (in this context, the same thing as salvation) is a reward for a life well-lived. This implies that they at least believe that the can receive the opposite — damnation and no rebirth. There is no sense in their world of an afterlife, the Heroes of the Horn and wolves notwithstanding.
@8:
I feel like Mat is pretty much the same character (just growing) until the events of this book — when he has the memories of thousands of men shoved inside his head. That understandable changed his personality some. Although most of the men come from a similar archetype as him, so it’s more like accelerated maturity and growth in certain areas. The type that comes from experience.
@9:
I forgiver her because she’s the youngest of all the POV characters so far. She’s a 16-17 year old girl who ran away from home. Acting immature is forgivable when you are immature. And she has a LOT of cultural baggage to overcome.
RE: Saldaean women. I think that’s part of it, but see me comment @14 for more thoughts.
@10-12:
Then there was this:
I think I still have the Facebook chat where we came up with that idea as a gag gift, lol.
I hope after that Gaul eventually does go to Rhuidean survives the trip through the Glass Columns and becomes a clan chief. IMO, he would make a good clan chief.
BTW, since Rand revealed the history of the Aiel to them, do you think that the purpose of the Glass Columns will change so that anybody who enters the Glass Columns will see their descendant’s possible future rather than the past? Or is seeing one’s possible future reserved for the second trip through the Glass Columns.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Honestly, Faile’s nonsense with the Ways is probably her low point. Her relationship with Perrin is, uh, vexing, but there’s some chapters coming that show what it can be at its best.
I wasn’t on Tor during the great spanking debate, but came across it a few years ago when I read through some of Leigh’s reread. I doremember that I was shocked and horrified by some of what I read there, things that went way beyond the discussion of Saldean gender roles and courtship/marriage customs.
Are there even enough moderators in the world to handle another Faile/Perrin discussion? Will every inflammatory comment be replaced by a gif of “that’s just, like, your opinion, man” by weary bots? Tune in for the great spanking debate part 2…
@16 I suspect 1 trip =past and 2 trips =future was a preprogrammed feature of glass columns made at creation of Rhuidian. Aiel chiefs and Wise Women were too shell shocked and bound by tradition to even attempt a second trip till Aviendha. At a new age it will probably become a final test giving Aiel a goal in life to reach/avoid their predestined future.
And wow, Bridgitte tells Perrin whole thing here, I totally forgot about this scene. It will take Mat 2 books to remember where tower is and to talk to Brigitte about ‘finns and connection of his favorite game to them!! Perrin never actually has a chance to enlighten him, if he even remembered that conversation.
Good recap. Nice insight into what is going on, except this:
No, right the first time you saw it. Following along with idea that time is cyclical and all that, the overall conceit is that most everyone is reborn, thought the oath “By my hope of salvation and rebirth…” implies that your life determines, at the very least, how soon you get to come back. Hawkwing and the others are pulled aside to act as Agents of the Pattern, maybe as Ta’veren, to accomplish specific things, but others seem to have the opportunity to live and grow again.
That’s extremely perceptive of Sylas to pick up on the distinction of entering Finnland by the Tower of Ghenjei vs. the redstone doorways. He’s exactly right that the doorways were created to be safer ways to enter. I don’t know how he got there from what Birgitte says in the text here… I never thought there was enough there to make that jump. But if it was just a blind jump, then he hit it right on.
On the other hand, he’s way off about souls not being reborn, lol.
@15
Yes that catechism is taught everywhere, and clearly people believe that they have to be saved and may not be. Still, there’s nothing we see that indicates that some people are NOT reborn. Even Ishamael, who has surely done many lifetimes of awful deeds, and doesn’t even WANT to be reborn (certainly doesn’t pray to be reborn)… is regularly reborn. That catechism is pretty much the closest thing that WoT has to a religion, which means the same thing in Randland as it does here… it’s not necessarily the whole story, and may just be a way for people to encourage good behavior and be comforted in difficult times.
@7 I would characterize Emond’s Field customs and Saldea customs a pretty similar on an underlying basis, with one trending towards EXCESSIVE SHOWS OF PASSION (french, spanish allegory) vs. background conniving and subterfuge (UK and English culture allegory).
Feel free to explain domination by the husband to your imaginary Deira t’Bashere.
Ishy doesn’t want to come back, but the DO doesn’t care what people want, Ishy is just a useful tool for the Lord of the Grave.
@15 That is awesome, I didn’t realize you guys went that far with the gags for Aunty Leigh, well done!
I’d say to me that the annoyance of the Perrin-Faile relationship for me comes from this:
1. Jordan was very fond of giving many of his characters a particular trait that often dictated and dominated their personality. Mat’s constantly proclaiming he’s not a hero and then rushing directly into the fray, Nynaeve’s constant irritation at most things, Lan’s stoicism, Moiraine’s serenity, etc.
2. Oftentimes, though, with relationships, you see new facets of those characters. With Lan/Nynaeve over time, you see instances of him having his shell broken and him actually showing emotion, while Nynaeve shows a softer, more emotional side of her personality in regards to him.
3. With Perrin and Faile, it’s the opposite. He’s a big guy who over-deliberates everything with maximum angst in order to not hurt someone accidentally and when he makes up his mind, refuses to change it because reasons. She’s the hot-headed, impulsive girl who refuses to let him or anyone else make decisions for her and does whatever she feels necessary because reasons. And you get that pounded into your head with most every interaction between them to the degree that their relationship often becomes tiresome to read about because it leads to situations where you have two people with “I’m the only person qualified to make decisions!” mindsets refusing to talk, negotiate, compromise, etc. with each other when just a bit of actual communication would at least make thing less mega-drama for everyone within, say, 50 miles of them.
@25 Another reason for the relationship to become tiresome is that Perrin’s character arc is almost done after this book. He’s pretty close to where he needs to be by the end of the series so he spends the next six or seven books in stasis. If there wasn’t so much of the series left (so far to go with Rand’s character arc), Faile and Perrin would sort out their miscommunications in the next book, get married in the book after, and have a little post-wedding drama before going off to fight the last battle.
Whoohoo, Shadowspawn! And Machin Shin!
“tiny souls, acrid souls, gobble them down” is the only explicit canonical statement that Trollocs have souls. Lanfear says they can dream (unlike Myrddraal and Grey Men), and Rand or somebody wonders in AMoL whether a human could get reborn as a Trolloc or Myrddraal (RJ said* a Trolloc would be reborn as a Trolloc, so I assume vice versa), but that’s all.
Machin Shin also finds Trolloc “blood” bitter but edible. That fits the range of Trolloc edibility. Wolves don’t eat them, Worms and Fain eat them but prefer humans, Trollocs eat them, and carrion birds eat them eagerly. Carrion birds don’t eat Myrddraal, or even Trollocs near Myrddraal, but Mashadar will consume Myrddraal and I expect Machin Shin will too, though it doesn’t say so.
Yeah, good thing Perrin didn’t bite that Myrddraal’s throat out. If he didn’t get killed in the process, he’d have a mouthful of blood that “burns like acid.” Ow.
Trollocs notably have human eyes in monstrous faces, while Perrin has wolf eyes in a human face.
Here, Aiel call Trollocs “Leafblighter’s get.” ‘Scuse me? It doesn’t work that way.
*Top answer at https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Nym
Faile quite pissed me off in the early days; then I realized that she, not Elayne, was the “Spoiled Princess” of the series who only grows up at the end where she embraces the borderland philosophy “Duty is heavier than a mountain; death is lighter than a feather.”
@@@@@ 10, dptullos, as Leah pointed out on the re-read. Faile doesn’t know Perrin’s nose gives him empathic powers. She thinks she’s hiding her anger and confusion and disappointment. Intellectually she knows she mustn’t expect him to act like a Saldean man but she was socialized as a Saldean she can’t help reading his gentleness as disrespect for her strength. Her head knows that’s wrong but her gut feels awful anyway.
@11 KAne1684, @29 princessroxana
You are both right. Faile is a very young woman entering into her first relationship under extremely stressful circumstances. She has reasons to behave the way she does, and she doesn’t know that Perrin can “smell” her emotions.
I don’t dispute that her characterization is realistic. However, it is frustrating to spend entire books imagining a situation where Faile has enough maturity to have one conversation with Perrin.
“Hello, Perrin. I want you to know that my culture values strength and confrontation. Whenever I try to run over you, I want you to push back. I think it is attractive when you display your determination and resolve, and I don’t feel bullied or diminished when you assert yourself.”
“Uh, Faile, I’m not from Saldea…”
“I know. But I am from Saldea, and that’s the kind of relationship I want to have. You have to choose whether you want that kind of relationship with me, but it isn’t fair of me to expect you to read my mind. So I’m telling you what I want, and now you can decide what you want.”
They’ll still fight and argue, but so many stupid, unnecessary conflicts have just been avoided by Faile simply telling Perrin what she wants.
Of course, Perrin’s side of the conversation would have gone like this:
“I’m sorry, Faile. I love you, but I think I’m going to my death and I’m just a Two Rivers peasant.”
“Wow, Perrin. I was worried that I’ve been far too stupid for far too long, but now I see that you’ve been just as dumb. Have you tried plans that don’t involve your own death?”
“No. Also, I don’t want to bring you along because it isn’t right to drag you into this, and I want to protect you.”
“It would be childish and immature to slap you right now, but I still want to. Instead, I am going to remind you that I am a noblewoman in a society that is constantly at war with Trollocs. Stop treating me like a small child, and I will help you to make plans that don’t involve you dying.”
“I, uh, didn’t know that was a thing that could happen.”
All through the series, wherever she appears, I find Faile annoying, and unnecessary to the plot. Winters Heart was such a pain to read I nearly stopped the whole series. Im glad that Sanderson relegated the Perrin-Faile storyline to the background.
I think the Faile-Perrin relationship is one of Jordan’s most successful creations.
It rings true situationally, given how each character has been established.
It oscillates.
It invites involvement & elicits strong emotional reaction.
Unfortunately, it’s an emotionally manipulative spin cycle that is rinsed & repeated once too often, to accomodate the interminable detour from Path Of Daggers to CoT.
Notwithstanding that, we actually do have an example of a ‘mature’ Saldean Adult relationship, when Perrin first meets his In-Laws. Yet another successful attempt at Jordan to get us (well me anyway) headdesking in rueful exasperation at the interminably crossed wires of RandLand’s Relationship Advice Collective.
PS: I LOVE GAUL and would count myself blessed beyond deserving if I had even one friend who considered me as steadfast a companion as Perrin & Gaul see eachother.
@30, dptullos, Communication is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately everybody in Randland is allergic to it.
@30 – LOL! I spit coffee out at my desk reading that post. I concur with you about the annoyance factor in their relationship, As you pointed out, realistic and reasonable characterizations don’t necessarily equate to “fun to read about”.
@33 – Agreed, but isn’t that always kind of the point in the WoT that Jordan was trying to make? That we’re all better when we communicate and work with one another? I know a lot of people find the lack of open communication between characters and the gender dynamics in the series a big turn off to reading it. But for me, I find both to be really uplifting when I consider the point that I think Jordan was trying to make. We’re all better as a society when we work together. We’re all better when men and women are treated as equal and allowed to help and support one another for the common good. Nothing truly good in the Wheel of Time can happen without men and women working together and recognizing their own weaknesses are complemented by the others’ strengths.
Randland habitants also have huge problems with asking for help. Everybody needs help sometimes. It doesn’t mean you’re incapable. ‘I can take care of myself!’ Is practically their theme song. Even when it’s obvious that they can’t in this particular situation. Like say travelling the Ways.
Regarding reincarnation:
The cathecism that people talk about in Randland also says that the Creator bound the Dark One and his 13 forsaken inside the Bore at the beginning of time. Even though this could be true of the Dark One, this most definitely wasn’t the case with the Forsaken, who were imprisoned as an after effect of Lews Therin’s actions (except for Ishamael).
So the cathecism is right in some parts and wrong in others.
I guess the “hope of salvation and rebirth” is part that’s also wrong. As far as we can see from all over the series and interviews, nothing stops reincarnation. Not balefire, not being a very bad person. Maybe Hopper dying in Tel’aran’rhiod after already having died as a normal wolf could count, but Sanderson kind of implied that part of his soul is in Perrin’s new hammer. So even that maybe doesn’t count.
So maybe only a Dark One victory could stop reincarnation, and that would depend if the Dark One wanted that person to live again as an evil version of his/herself or to not live at all. Reincarnation in general won’t be stopped for any reason, not even a Dark One’s victory. Time is cyclical, nothing that you can do about it in this universe, I guess. So Ishamael has no way out, he’s doomed to be reborn again as a philosopher in the Age of Legends and get kind of bored/angsty and join the Dark One again and again.
Only a few very specific people are reborn to do even similar things again — The Dragon and the Heroes of the Horn are the only known examples. Ishamael’s theory of himself as an eternal counterpart to the Dragon is, in fact, pure speculation and driven wholly by his own ego.
Time is cyclical, yes, but it’s cyclical in much, much broader strokes than that.
The people of Randland definitely believe that everybody reincarnates – sooner or later. Being removed from the wheel is something to dread. I gather from various sources that Jordon implied they were wrong about that. Perrin perceived Hopper as leaping into darkness. That doesn’t mean there’s nothing beyond it.
@38
Even Rand’s final epiphany during his Dragonmount crisis seems to imply that all, or at least many, are reincarnated at some point.
And somebody, Egwene? Reflects that everybody is reborn over and over but most don’t have any memory of their past lives and nobody should have to remember Lews Theron’s life.
A lot of very strong male an female channelers are born just in time to take part in the last battle. Many of them may be AEs Sedai from the end of the age of legend but blessedly they don’t know it. Rand has to remember. He has to know what he did wrong iif he is to have any chance of getting it right this time.
I like to think that all those who died in the cause of light got really good rebirths. That lovers like Siuan and Gareth Byrne are reborn in close proximity, find each other early and enjoy long happy lives together.
To be clear, I wasn’t meaning that people aren’t reborn in general: just that what they do in each life isn’t going to be the same as what they did in the last. Rand’s whole Dragonmount epiphany is about precisely this.
It’s ever so trite seeing people being all holier than thou saying how “oh I totally perfectly understand the opposite sex” and making a deal of a society where people generally do not. If you were to be honest with yourself I bet you’d find that the majority of people in our world also believe that they do not understand the opposite sex, whether they are correct in that or not. The simple fact that we tend to divide up ourselves based on sex to pursue activities in youth (be that for cultural reasons or because of sexual dimorphism naturally lending to different kinds of play, with the obvious caveat of all human traits occurring according to a normal distribution curve) tends to lead to us perceiving that we understand members of our own sex better than of the opposite sex as a result of exposure. In a society such as that of Randland it is natural that the high degree of differentiation due to the manifestation of original sin of the Dragon and the male Aes Sedai would heighten the perception of difference between the sexes.
Asking for something different is asking for a worse thought out world, or asking for the premise of the whole series to be different. Same problem as asking for men and women to be able to tap the same source of power. The power source had to be split in order to allow for the original sin theme which is the whole basis for how this world works. And the metaphor requires that it is a strictly gender split since it’s playing off original sin in Christianity. Doing it otherwise would have weakened the metaphor and worsened the book. Half-assing it would have weakened the worldbuilding.
@30 – I laughed, but of course if we got that (at least early on)…well, they wouldn’t be Perrin and Faile. For better or worse ;)
Hope all is well with Sylas and family!
I never realized Hopper was the first one to let Perrin know about his family. Every time I have read this portion I must have skimmed right past it.
Hello dear friends. I appologize, I had to take one more week off. Thank you so much for your patience and understanding! :-)
-Sylas
Sylas,
Thanks for the update. I hope that everything is going well! Take whatever time you need, we will still all be here when you return (well, I will be at least!).
Family always comes first! Take your time, we will be here when you are ready to return. Just hope I can control myself….I want to read ahead!! lol
@44 – I’ve always read that as Hopper talking about Perrin’s “home” as being a large part of the Two Rivers, rather than a specific house, and the dead who hadn’t fled he referred to were wolves rather than people. I don’t think that Hopper would know Perrin’s family except by smell, and since he couldn’t have been there physically (being confined to TAR and all) and the other wolves would have had no reason to go close to the village or to pass on the scents of those Two Legs that they did come across to other wolves.
Sylas,
Take your time and make sure you and yours stay well. These are troubled times and I am sure we readers can put our RandLand fix on hold till things return to normalcy in RealLife.
Also, since I have been mostly lurking silently due to way too many other commitments, let me take the opportunity to thank you (for this read as well as the Doctor Who posts with Emmet, who I hope is better). I may not comment much but I eagerly await your posts.
Tai’shar… Brooklyn, I guess? :)
~lakesidey